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Talk:Bullfrogs
Untitled I believe they were ODSTs. Either way they were badass and I hope they show up in more of the fiction. ShortRoundMcFly 05:25, September 15, 2010 (UTC) :Yep, I recall one of the troopers calling them "a group of ODST specialists". Can't be sure though, I'll check it out when I get the chance. --Jugus (Talk | ) 11:16, September 15, 2010 (UTC) ::It would appear so, but one should take note of the rank Specialist, which is basically an Army rank. All other ranks can be found in either branches of the UNSCDF, suggesting that the group is indeed an Army unit and not a Marine unit. Perhaps whoever said it was mistaken and made the assumption based on the unit's uniforms?- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 11:23, September 15, 2010 (UTC) We're trying to make an issue out of a non-issue, their ODST's. Why would Bungie make an AI say such a confusing statement? It'd be like if Marines called Noble 6 Mastercheif. We have a sufficient evidence, most "sources" are simply quotes form the source material and a quote form Reach says their ODST's and it seems tehre armor would agree, and just assuming them to be Army is unfounded. Also non-jetpack ODST's assist you in a later level of the game, wearing the same exact armor and everything and sometimes say "ODST's reporting for duty." :I would like to remind you that the so-called ODST armour is no longer exclusively to ODSTs anymore. Based on Patrol marketing viral video for Reach, it appears even the Army infantrymen have access to the entire combat armour. So, simply saying "They're ODSTs because they're wearing the ODST armour" is no longer valid.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 18:57, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Yes but that does not change that they are refereed to as ODST's, wear the "ODST" armor (By the way, ODST armor is a bit different then the armor the patorl fellows are wearing), make no reference to being member of the army, and later on seemingly confirmed ODST individuals who are identical save the jet packs, it wlould seem logically these gents are ODST's. Regardless if there ODST's or not, we have no idea if they're an army unit either. Until someone can scrounge up evidence more compelling I'm going to change their branch to "unknown." SpartanSeries2 21:38, September 15, 2010 (UTC) It wouldn't be a Wiki if we didn't argue over a minutiae, I guess. Ingame dialogue and the character models agree, they're ODST's, I'm changing the article. ShortRoundMcFly 03:28, September 16, 2010 (UTC) Here is my take on the ODST issue..... The problem that Bungie has had with respect to fleshing out the military units is that they had such a huge universe that they made the mistake of making it all about the Marines. They were smart to bring in the Army because the Army make up the bulk of combat forces in real life and to think the we (yes, I'm a airborne infantryman) are only used for defensive operations is freakin' ridiculous. The Marine Corps is very small compared to the Army, but they are also effective and a very good force multiplier, but this idea that they get all the major ops is stupid. The Army is extremely versatile and why they made the ODST part of the Marine Corps branch is beyond me because if they are saying the lineage of the ODST is from paratroopers from the past, it should be based off of the airborne units of the US Army because the Marines do not have airborne divisions and never will. Hell, most special operations forces come from the Army and the Marines just joined the special operations community. They bring up Marine Force Recon, but their main op was to conduct reconnaisance, not direct action (until they became MARSOC). Its obvious that I'm partial to the Army, but I have tremendous respect for the Marines and we are all brothers on the battlefield, but Bungie really fumbled the ball with creating the UNSC forces and modeling it correctly off of today's forces. I wished they had me on their staff and all of this stuff would be cleared up. Bugkill 18:13, September 18, 2010 (UTC) May be possible that USNC Army maintains own ODST..... I was thinking about this possiblility that perhaps the UNSC Army has an ODST element also. It has already been said that the ODST recruit from all services under the UEG (Unified Earth Government) which has to include the Army. I know that for the most part most of the stories (and games) featured only ODST's from the Marine Corps, but I think that the ODST is not specific to any of the other services and it would only make sense that they have ODST units in the Army as well. So, I think the Bulldogs should go back to being part of the Army (specifically for the Halo: Reach section) because they make no reference to being Marines and ODST recruits from all services, so their ranks are filled with everyone that makes it through training.I think the Army and Marine Corps (both fighting forces) maintains ODST units within their own branches. Bugkill 17:19, September 18, 2010 (UTC) :The ODST's are part of the Marine Corps, but they recruit from everywhere - Marines, Navy, Army, Air Force, and civilian special forces. The "Specialist" who set off the controversy was, in all probability, just a transfer from the Army who kept his rank. The fact that it wasn't translated into the Marine equivalent may indicate just how recent his transfer was - with a planet under attack, I imagine the UNSCDF would have better things to occupy themselves than making sure everyone was the correct rank. -- Specops306 Autocrat Qur'a 'Morhek 05:02, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Personally, I don't believe Bungie made a mistake with respect to rank. They have been pretty spot on when it came to Marine Corps ranks in their games and if these ODST's were Marines, they would call themselves that or have the corporal rank displayed. I think that Bungie has expanded the halo universe a bit and has finally included the UNSC Army because it made no sense have everything about the Marines because they would not fight a full scale war while the Army sits around in a defensive posture, simply stupid. My opinion is that the ODST is a special forces unit that could fall under Army and Marine Corps command and that the troopers that join are no longer a Marine or Soldier, but only ODST. I think it would be best if Bungie officially makes it that way with respect to the ODST's, just make them their own special outfit that has units in both the Army and Marine Corps because they are needed by both commands to do special operations. Bugkill 17:14, September 18, 2010 (UTC) "a group of ODST specialists" Guys, this phrase was not made because of rank, but out of the fact that the ODST's are a specialized unit. They are specialists in their field and that is why Holland (I think it was him) refered to them that way. Bugkill 17:15, September 18, 2010 (UTC) :Note that Holland referred the group as "a group of ODST specialists" and not just "a group of ODSTs". In any conversation, you would have know that the ODSTs are already a specialised unit, and you wouldn't reinforce this by adding another reinforcing descriptive word afterwards. By this structure of a statement, Holland is actually referring to the Army's counterpart of the ODSTs; this implies that the Army maintains its own form of Special Forces unit but often getting mixed up with the ODSTs due to the armor system they share. This, by far, makes most sense to me and supporting is none other than that Specialist rank in the group. - 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 06:45, September 18, 2010 (UTC) To Bugkill: You're right, Stacker says they're "specialists" as a catch-all term, but one of the Bullfrogs actually holds the rank of Specialist, which is an Army rank in the real world military. ShortRoundMcFly 06:51, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Like I said earlier, I support the idea that the UNSC Army maintains their own ODST units and it only makes sense that they do. People have to remember that the Halo universe has been expanding and we are learning of new units and weapons that we did not know when Halo first started, which only featured the Marines. Halo: Reach is mainly about the USNC Army and they did a great job with putting them in there. I recommend putting the Bullfrogs back under the UNSC Army. Bugkill 17:27, September 18, 2010 (UTC) :It may be a reasonable thought, but we have no solid evidence of what's really going on here. The closest we can come is the fact that a Specialist is a real Army rank held by one of the Bullfrogs, but that can also be explained by what others have already said. There is no need putting the group under any specific branch until we get any extra clarification, if we do at all. I say the Bullfrogs should stay put for now... but what their Battalion is might be a different story. Where did we get 22nd from, again? I must have missed that. ---dky 22:39, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Look people, can we just assume that after 500 years, the Marine corps of a military force that doesn't even exist in the present day would've started using the rank of specialist? Yes, most ranks in the UNSC conform those of the US military, but on the other hand, everything seems to point at these guys being ODSTs. Also, we've seen an earlier hint at the Marines using the Specialist rank; Frankie specifically mentioned that Berger, who clearly seems to be a marine, holds the rank of Specialist. Now, this is from Legends and some canon details may be fuzzy, but note that his rank was mentioned nowhere in the episode; instead, Frankie felt the need to specify it in a post at HBO. --Jugus (Talk | ) 13:27, September 19, 2010 (UTC) :I don't see anything wrong with an Army infantryman being on a naval ship. Berger might as well be part of the Army, being transported to another colony world to be stationed. In fact, if personnels of the Army can't use ships of the Navy, how else would they travel planets to planets? Since you pointed that out, might as well fix the Berger article to reflect his Army profile. Since the start, we've been assuming that the Marines composed of the larger force of the UNSCDF, even taking over the role of the UNSC Army. However, H:Reach showed that this is untrue and that the Army is the majority. We were wrong. :Also, please take note at how Holland structured his sentence. *points above* :All of these points out that the Bullfrogs are, in fact, an Army special forces unit.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 13:37, September 19, 2010 (UTC) ::I thought Holland said "ODST specialists" because the Bullfrogs are clearly specialists among ODSTs. By "ODST specialists", he didn't mean the fact they're ODSTs makes them special, but the fact they specialize in the use of jetpacks. That's how I understood it anyways. Also, if "specialists" referred to their ranks, then how come is only one of them a Specialist? ::As for Berger, I proposed the same as you a while ago on Talk:Berger, but Forerunner convinced me otherwise.--Jugus (Talk | ) 13:47, September 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Ah... wasn't aware of the discussion. I apologise. :::Regarding the structure of Holland's sentence; refer to my comment below the OP. Do not mistake specialists as to being referred directly to the ranks. :::The problem with Forerunner's theory is that we are not told why the Marines/Army are on the ship. We only know that only the ODSTs are given the mission. What happens after the operation remains ambiguous.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 13:59, September 19, 2010 (UTC) :::Good point, Jugus. I remembered Berger's rank as well, but I was too busy playing Reach to mention it. To corroborate your point: Yesterday, while playing The Package, I noticed that one of my ODST fireteam buddies also held the rank of specialist. He wasn't a Bullfrog, of course, but he was nonetheless an ODST with a supposedly Army-exclusive rank. I also believe that the Corps eventually adopted the specialist rank, even though it hasn't been mentioned before. :::To Subtank: At least some of them sport the flaming skull emblem, the one used by Marine ODSTs, on their armor. Even if that doesn't confirm anything, doesn't that at least suggest that they're Marines? And with regard to the "ODST specialists" line: They specialize in the use of jetpacks. He wasn't being redundant, but was instead clarifying that there's more to them than the everyday ODST. --"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson 13:54, September 19, 2010 (UTC) ::::Braidenvl: That could be true. And it would make sense since the Specialist didn't have the time to convert his/her rank into the Marines, as per Specops306.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 14:01, September 19, 2010 (UTC) Possible motto In Exodus, I heard one of the Bullfrogs yell "Death from above!" Could this be a possible motto of the Bullfrog unit? ' // ŝтŕγκęŕ' [ COM | | ] 02:27, September 21, 2010 (UTC) Convinced that the Bullfrogs are ODST assigned to the UNSC Army After reading all the arguments and actually playing the game, here is where I stand with the Bullfrogs issue. I think the Bullfrogs are assigned to the Army and that the UNSC Army has their own ODST branch. Bungie has made some mistakes in their games, but I'm not buying the "mistake" with respect to the SPC (specialist) rank. They have ALWAYS used Marine ranks for their games when they are describing Marines and I do not see them making a mistake here with the Bullfrogs. It has always been said that the UNSC Army is the primary force for land based operations and it only makes sense for them to have their own ODST or other special forces unit assigned to them to deal with the insurrectionists or other threats on the planet. The Bullfrogs sport Army ranks, not one Marine rank is shown (like gunnery sgt), and that tells me that the UNSC Army has ODST units in the same fashion that Marine Corps has them. Most of the Marines are on ships, while the Army is on planets taking and occupying territory. I could be wrong, but it only makes sense that the UNSC Army has their own Army ODST units under their command given the skills that they have. They are still ODST, just the Army version, not Marine. Bugkill 04:22, September 21, 2010 (UTC) :I'm not saying that isn't possible, but the ranks, along with the names, can be randomly assigned to any friendly unit in the game, ranging from militia soldiers to army and marines. Thus, even the soldiers in the final level that are clearly Marines can end up with Army ranks. --Jugus (Talk | ) 06:12, September 21, 2010 (UTC) I think the soldiers in the final level are Army, but it is a fact that the Marines are on the Pelican with Keyes and their armor is distinct from the Army troopers. I gotta check it again to make sure though because at first glance, I thought I had Army troopers fighting with me. Bugkill 14:37, September 21, 2010 (UTC) :The soldiers in the final level are clearly different from the Army soldiers seen throughout the game. Unlike the regular Army troopers, their helmet and all armor parts are dark brown, whereas the Army trooper helmet is white. Also, their right shoulder pauldron is different than the left one. And they all wear full-face helmets. Picture here. --Jugus (Talk | ) 15:19, September 21, 2010 (UTC) ::The Bullfrogs are ODSTs. the fact that one of them has the rank of specialist is part of a GAMEPLAY MECHANIC. (One that's actually pretty useless on Legendary) There for, it doesn't matter. the Bullfrogs are part of the Marine Corps. Not Army. --WhellerNG 16:44, September 21, 2010 (UTC) :: :: ::I'd love to point out that the term "bullfrog" is given to the highest-tenured U.S. Navy SEAL still on active duty. I'm a former U.S. Army SOCOM soldier, but I REALLY have to believe these boys are either Marine Corps or Navy. HellJump04 21:26, October 16, 2010 (UTC) Oh well, Bugkill, too bad. They're Marines. The "rank" issue comes up because Bungie are lazy when it comes to things like that. Programming in little details like that cost time and money. The less time and money you spend on development of trivial issues like that, the more resources you have to divert to things like testing and development of additional content. The ODSTs are laid out throughout the Halo universe as UNSC Marine special forces operators. There aren't Marine Rangers, or Air Force SEALS, or Navy PJs; similarly, there are no Army ODSTs. And the troops wearing brown are Marines, the guys wearing green utilities are Army. -- User:Griever0311 Starship Troopers First off, your fact isn't even right. "Marauder" refers to the suit of power armour that the Mobile Infantry of Starship Troopers wears. Second off, Razack's Roughnecks only use Jetpacks in the very beginning of the book. --WhellerNG 22:31, October 12, 2010 (UTC) *I haven't read the book in a while so sorry if I'm a little sketchy on such minutiae. However, I explicitly remember Rico and his comrades using jetpacks extensively in training (mostly the part where, during a training exercise, the power to Rico's jetpack is cut midflight). They're probably used in other parts of the book or at least described, but they're definitely standard issue. Plus, the battle at the beginning of the book is one of only around three (the others being Klendathu and the fight towards the end of the book) that the narrator takes part in and describes in any real detail, so you have to rely more on Rico's narrative to get a feel for what's standard practice or not. CaptJim 07:00, October 22, 2010 (UTC)